Stephen Harper: Greeting once again, to representatives of the member parties of the IDU from around the world. Welcome to this session on the situation in Greece and challenges in the Mediterranean Sea. A conversation on foreign and security policy with the Prime Minister of Greece, Kyriakos Mitsotakis.
A brief biography of our guest. The Prime Minister was born under the Greek military dictatorship, in 1968. His family was under arrest and then in exile, when he was a boy. He returned to Greece in 1974 with the restoration of Democracy. He later went on to earn a Bachelor’s in Social Studies from Harvard, a Master’s in International Policy from Stanford and an MBA from the Harvard Business School. He had a business career for many years, before being first elected in the Parliament for our member party, New Democracy, in 2004. He served as Minister of the Ministry of Reform from 2013-2015 in the previous New Democracy government and he was elected party leader and leader of the opposition in 2016. He became Prime Minister of Greece in 2019, winning almost 40% of the vote and the majority in the Parliament.
Prime Minister welcome. Thank you for joining us.
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be with you
Stephen Harper: So, opening question: You weren’t Prime Minister very long before you were thrown into this most unusual situation that we are all experiencing. So, it would be an omission if I didn’t ask about the Covid-19 situation in Greece and the kind of measures the government is implementing.
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: You are indeed right that the Covid situation is an extraordinary crisis. Νo one was really prepared for it. It was made more complicated in Greece given the fact that we also had at the same time to deal with a migration crisis and a rather aggressive neighbour, but I understand we’ll discuss these later in our discussion. Greece did particularly well in containing the first wave of the Covid epidemic. I think we took measures very very quickly. We communicated very clearly. Essentially, we managed to suppress the first wave with minimal casualties. Then as most countries, we relaxed during the summer. I do think that some complacency set in. I think we were victims in a sense of our own success. And – as you know – Europe has been hit hard by a second wave. I think no country essentially escaped a spike in cases. We saw a similar situation which put our healthcare system under considerable strain. I think we have plateaued in terms of the number of cases. We have put the country in a lockdown essentially for the past month. And we plan to begin relaxing our measures in the next weeks.
But it certainly has been a challenge for our healthcare system. And it really proves that you can’t let your guard down, at least until the vaccine is going to become widely available. That is the one bright light in a rather gloomy winter. We are planning an aggressive program to vaccinate essentially the entire population within the next five to six months. I expect the vaccine will be approved by European regulators by the end of the year. We should be receiving the first doses literally 24 hours later and we will start vaccinating the population based on rather obvious criteria, starting with the most vulnerable, our healthcare workers, essential workers. But we do know that the vaccine of course is a ray of hope. But at the same time, we have to remain vigilant because there is always a danger of a third wave and frankly we cannot afford to put our healthcare system under that strain once more.
Stephen Harper: A question just of curiosity. I was looking at the numbers just before I came online with you. Greece has had a relatively high infection rate by European standards. Yet, relatively low death rate. Where do you attribute that kind of contradiction to?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: It is always difficult to compare statistics. I think in the first wave of the epidemic, we had a very low death rate and a relatively low infection rate. Clearly things changed in the fall. It may have to do with the weather, people moving more indoors. Unfortunately, over the past weeks we have seen significant casualties in Greece. So the death rate has increased, which is painful and worrisome. But it is what happens when unfortunately you have a community spread that has reached the point where a lot of people simultaneously come to your hospitals. It is difficult really to extrapolate and to reach conclusions. What I can say is that we all realise the value of a national healthcare system that is publicly funded, free and available to all. We’ve been able to treat every single patient who has come to our hospitals. With difficulties, but we’ve been able to rise up to the task and I think it also highlights that the reform of a national healthcare system should be at the core of the agenda of a liberal government, such as the one I have the honour of leading. I think we drew a lot of lessons in terms of how we can make our national healthcare system better, even better for the future and this certainly is going to be one of the areas I do intend to focus on once the pandemic is over.
Stephen Harper: Mr Prime Minister, this is not the first crisis for Greece. Global financial crisis probably hit Greece harder than just about any country in the world, with obviously multiple rounds of austerity and economic crises following that. You have had the migrant crisis, a far-left government for many years. What is your situation now? And you must have a lot on your plate. What is your agenda going forward? There’s got to be an awful lot of demands on you and what’s your vision for reform?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: When we came into power, in July 2019, we promised Greeks an aggressive reform agenda, lowering taxes, making the Greek economy more competitive, making sure that we exit this prolonged period of crisis which lasted the best part of a decade and we really promised Greeks a better future, an inclusive, a very inclusive version of a new growth model that will focus on Greece’s natural comparative advantages and we were actually doing quite well before the pandemic hit us. Just to give you one example, in the first three months of 2020 – in spite of the fact that the pandemic had already hit us in March – we did manage to post a positive growth rate when the average recession for the first three months in the eurozone was close to 4%. So we were doing really well before the pandemic hit us and I think we have also managed to contain the economic damage to the extent that it was possible for a country that is very dependent on tourism. We’ve supported small and medium-sized businesses, put in place substantial furlough schemes and we have spent generously but also I think wisely to make sure that we keep the real economy alive.
At the same time, we’ve also continued – with all the underlying structural reforms that will allow us once the pandemic is over to make the case that Greece can grow again aggressively in the future. And so far I’d say the reception of the capital markets has been very encouraging. In spite of the fact that – as you know – we have a high level of debt, we are currently borrowing at record low interest rates, similar to the ones that Italy for example is borrowing, something which was inconceivable a year ago. A lot of foreign companies are – as we speak – investing in Greece. Microsoft announced a month ago a very substantial investment in building three big data centres in Greece, which a lot of people in the tech sector noticed. And we are actually expanding our portfolio of interest in terms of attracting foreign investment beyond what you would expect Greece would be doing, for example just investing in tourism.
I think Greece is turning into a tech hub for the Eastern Mediterranean. We leverage the fantastic quality of our people. We are bringing a lot of people back. People who have left Greece over the past decade. A lot of them, for example, have even come to Canada in search for a better future. For the first time, there is a case to be made that these people can actually return to Greece. And I am optimistic. I am rather optimistic that after the crisis is over, we will see a rapid recovery in Greece and we will be a positive success story for the Mediterranean South. It also helps that we have an absolute majority in Parliament. You know something about how complicated it can be to govern with coalition partners and how easier it is when you actually have the majority in Parliament.
And frankly we enjoy a lot of confidence. In spite of the difficulties. In spite of the crisis, the government now – according to poles – is more popular than it was in July 2019 when we won with almost 40%. So this is sort of a vote of encouragement. The implication is that we should continue more aggressively with change in the country. I don’t have an incremental agenda. I have a very bold agenda for transforming the country. And we also have a lot of money available from the European Union, which helps us because we have the Recovery and Resilience Fund. 32 billion on top of what we would be receiving anyhow from the European Union available for reforms and investment. So we feel we also have the financial firepower to support what is a very aggressive reform agenda.
Stephen Harper: Let’s hope that Greece has that opportunity to resume its path, as we do for all our countries, very quickly. We’ve seen the Greek people in Canada are industrious entrepreneurs. We’ve always felt that there’s really possibility in Greece if we have a government like yours that’s committed to basically market-based growth. So, we wish you all the best. As you are struggling with those domestic challenges and your domestic reform agenda, you have a complicated neighbour, more complicated than ever, it seems. I’ve had some pretty strong opinions about Mr Erdogan for some time. But maybe you can tell us a bit more about the conflict you have been experiencing in the Mediterranean Sea with Turkey. Can you tell us a little about their actions and your concern?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: When I first became Prime Minister, I handed out a hand of friendship to Turkey. And I told President Erdogan that we are neighbours. We are destined to live together. Let’s find a way to resolve our issues in a peaceful manner. Unfortunately, Turkey has been behaving extremely aggressively for the most part of the last year, openly violating Greek sovereign rights, engaged in what we consider to be illegal exploratory activities for hydrocarbons in an area we consider to be part of the Greek Exclusive Economic Zone, using a very bellicose and aggressive language.
Stephen Harper: This is around Cyprus?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: Not just around Cyprus. But also in an area we consider part of the Greek EEZ. So in Cyprus they are actually doing illegal drilling. In our case, they are sending ships that do seismic research. But they do it when the ship is accompanied by 20 military vessels. We’ve made it very clear that this is a behaviour that we cannot tolerate. But we’ve also made it clear to our European partners and our NATO partners that this is not just an issue about Greece and Turkey, or about Turkey and Cyprus. The stability of the Eastern Mediterranean is critical for the interests of the European Union. It is critical for the interests of NATO. I’ve seen a shift in the policy of the United States. The US have decided not to sell F-35 fighter aircrafts to Turkey, because Turkey chose to purchase a very advanced anti-aircraft missile system from Russia. And I think the mood also in the European Union has changed. We will have a very important Council meeting this week in Brussels. In October, we told Turkey you can choose between a path of cooperation or a path that will inevitably lead down towards the EU imposing some measures, some restrictive measures against Turkey. Turkey has clearly chosen the second path.
And I do expect that the Council this week will take some tough decisions regarding Turkey. I would also like to commend the fact that the Canadian government has actually decided to halt exports of vital technological equipment that actually goes into Turkish drones, because the Turks have been using these drones in Azerbaijan, in Nagorno- Karabakh against innocent civilians. I would very much like to thank the Canadian government for their support. I think this is the approach that all our allies need to take. Unfortunately, Turkey is acting as a destabilising factor in the Eastern Mediterranean. And I think this has become common knowledge. And I would expect that the new US administration is more aggressive and probably even more present in the Eastern Mediterranean, to ensure that this behaviour is contained. And what we’ve told Turkey is very-very simple and I think very logical.
If we have a difference regarding the delimitation of our maritime zones, the way to resolve it is not by sending our warships, it’s by sitting down and discussing and if we cannot find an agreement, we should go to the International Court and let the International Court make a decision. That is the way civilised nations resolve their differences. We’ve managed to sign a delimitation agreement with Italy. This all happened in 12 months, under my tenure. We signed a delimitation agreement with Egypt. With Albania we agreed that because we cannot reach an agreement, we agreed to take our case to the Court, to the Hague. So, we’ve proven that there is a way to resolve these issues. And it is not through unilateral aggressive behaviours. But Turkey has been exporting Jihadists to Syria, to Nagorno-Karabakh. It is clearly behaving in a manner that in my mind is just simply not compatible with a credible NATO ally. So, this is an issue that will also be raised within the Alliance and what I can tell you is that most people understand that this is not just a difference between Greece and Turkey. But a difference between Turkey and the European Union as a whole. And a big problem for NATO.
Stephen Harper: About what you said about Greece and the Canadian government vis a vis Turkey. It was one of the rare cases where I found myself in agreement with what my successors have done. I think that was a positive move. You mentioned these signed agreements you had with various countries in the region. Do you think that this will foster the security architecture in Eastern Mediterranean over time?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: I think yes. And I think that there is a broader agreement between many countries in the region, who essentially see eye to eye when it comes to the security challenges in the region. For example, as we speak, there is a big military exercise in Egyptian waters, where we participate with the Egyptians, the Israelis, the Cypriots and the Emiratis. So, these are the countries that essentially see eye to eye. We have created what we call Eastern Mediterranean Gas Forum, which is a multilateral Forum, which brings together countries that agree that the hydrocarbon resources of the area need to be exploited through peaceful cooperation. Unfortunately, in none of these multilateral arrangements Turkey is a party. And that is not our choice. It is Turkey’s choice.
So, maybe, at some point the Turkish leadership should understand that it is them who are constantly isolating themselves, and not us who have a problem with Turkey. Because I keep hearing this argument that we have a problem with Turkey. I have no problem with Turkey. I have no personal problem with President Erdogan. I have a problem with Turkish behaviour and I am not the only one. Everybody in the region seems to have the same view. So maybe the Turkish leadership should just take a step back and understand that cornering itself in a position where it finds itself completely isolated is not in the interest of the Turkish people. Turkey is facing a profound economic crisis as we speak with rampant inflation, big pressure on its currency. So I do hope that at some point somebody in Turkey will push the pause button, reconsider and understand that these approaches are essentially leading down a dead-end.
Stephen Harper: Prime Minister, I am going to follow-up on that. I am going to ask you maybe a bit of a provocative question. I sat with your predecessors, with President Erdogan and others around a NATO table. And I have witnessed over time, I witnessed Turkey intervene in Syria against our Kurdish allies, aiding extreme establishments. I witnessed Turkey make military deals with Russia. We have now witnessed Turkey as you said involve itself in the conflict in the Caucasus in a way that, once again, aids extreme establishments. This causes extreme concern for all of us. And you mentioned all of the various things it is doing in Eastern Mediterranean. Some of the problematic actions it is taking around migrants. I have a simple question: Turkey may be a member of NATO but is Turkey really an ally?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: Turkey is technically an ally, but it is behaving as an adversary within NATO. And that is a problem, because within NATO we have no real conflict resolution mechanism. So, I think it’s also up to Member States to draw the line. For example, Canada did it. The US has done it. France has done it. We also expect Germany to do it. Germany is in the process of selling six highly sophisticated military attack submarines to Turkey. As you know submarines are the quintessential offensive weapon. We think that this purchase should not go ahead. It doesn’t make much sense if European allies sell this type of military equipment to a country that is clearly behaving as an aggressor to the region. I think Turkey finds itself within NATO increasingly isolated. It was very very obvious also in the last Ministerial meeting – also very obvious from the position that the US is taking.
And I do expect that also the new administration will continue to put pressure on Turkey. And frankly we don’t want to live with a neighbour that is behaving very aggressively. So it is also in our interest to put enough pressure on Turkey to convince President Erdogan that he needs to reverse course. And that this approach is not to the benefit of the Turkish people.
But it is also quite dangerous that this is becoming a cultural, a religious issue. That Turkey appears to be the protector of Muslims all over the world. These are very dangerous games that are being played. When Turkey, for example, chooses to convert a museum – which was built as a Christian Church, the most emblematic of all Orthodox Christian Churches, Hagia Sophia. It was a Mosque. It became a museum under Ataturk. A secular indication that we can celebrate the History of the Monument. And it is reconverted 84 years later into a Mosque. I mean these are not good signals. And I’m afraid that the only way to convince Turkey to change path is to make it very very clear that there will be consequences. Significant, financial consequences for Turkey, should it continue that path. And for the first time I think that the threat of sanctions is very very credible. And it will have an impact on the economy given that it is quite vulnerable right now.
Stephen Harper: These are certainly big challenges. And I can assure you these challenges are being felt throughout the region. Ι just spent time in the United Arab Emirates, where this is a big subject of discussion. Very similar perspective to your own obviously. I am in Israel right now, once again very very big concerns about the direction Turkey is heading. I think this is going to present real challenges for all of us, all of our member parties whether we are in government or out of government. In the meantime, we really appreciate you sharing your perspectives on that and also sharing the optimistic message of hope and progress for the Hellenic Republic as it emerges from the Covid crisis that we all find ourselves in. Thank you.
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: Thank you. And my best regards to all our Members all over the world. And please feel free to visit us soon, hopefully once the Covid epidemic is over. And let me stress again the very strong ties between Greece and Canada, in particular given the strong presence of Greeks in your home country.
Stephen Harper: Thank you Prime Minister.
